Semih Aridogan on The future of work | Episode 02
🎙️

Semih Aridogan on The future of work | Episode 02

Description:

Founder of Strive studios, Semih discusses empathy and how to create it in the workplace, the importance of creating a feedback culture within our companies, how to pitch ideas to our boss, when they're not very receptive, and how he turned his problems into a consultancy for Fortune 500 companies.

Transcript:

Jawad

hi. Welcome to thinking backwards. This is your host Jawad. This podcast is here to help you tap into your inner creative and get you to ship your best work. We would interview guests have succeeded and failed. We would learn from them. And how they got their dream job. How did they get the raise they were looking for? How did they start their side hustle? But more importantly, how did they take the leap? To push. The start button. Our guest today is going to tell us his story. And what he learned throughout his journey from empathy and how to have that in the workplace, the importance of creating a feedback culture within our companies, how to pitch ideas to our boss, or they're not very receptive. And how not to get too stuck in the research stage before you are launching a project i hope you enjoyed this episode

Hi, Semih. Welcome to thinking backwards. semi. is the co-founder of strive, which is a Consulting firm based out of Berlin. doing a lot of cool stuff I will say. And he was the perfect fit for our podcast maybe you can start something by giving us a bit about your background.

Semih:

Glad to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Like you said. I'm the co-founder of a boutique agency. Called strive studio. We help. Teams to experience and adepts completely new ways of work. Because we think that bureaucracy and hierarchies. Are killing the creativity of employees. And does we want to make people more happy? A world with less bullshit products.

Jawad:

where did you start? Like, why did you decide to go into this. Agency. Why did you decide to create this?

Semih:

Story began 15 years ago, approximately. When I started off my first job at Mercedes Benz, and this was an absolutely dream job and dream employer because I'm from the South of Germany. Stuttgart, there are the headquarters. You see all the cars driving around. And you want to be part of this, right? And so I began my career there after my studies at the it department. And after a couple of weeks and months, I just felt that something is fishy. And I didn't know if I was the mistake or something else was a mistake.

Jawa

What did you feel? What was the problem?

Semih:

2:31

What was the problem? So a lot of things just to give one example, one of my first tasks to do was because I wasn't trained for a topic that main framing. My boss just told me too, that I should do a training in the first thing I had to do was to fill out a form, which was like two pages long. Extremely hard to fill out. it took me like one day. To get all the information for fill out that form. This form was sent to my boss, which has to approve. So his boss. To his boss. Until the CIO just got this approval fill out form.

Jawad:

The bureaucracy is real.

Semih:

Yeah, the bureaucracy. So in this training just had to imagine it was 1,300 euros or something. And just imagine like the way an effort that had. Been in this form until the CIO just approved. That I could just get this training.

Jawad:

So you wanted to get the training. And then they asked you to fill out a form, but from the time you fill out the form until you get approved for the test to go to 30 people above.

Semih:

Yeah, it had to. So at this stage, I didn't realize That this is a problem, but in retrospect, it was like, okay. Why? Why is this like this? And other things were like sentences when I wanted to start off new projects. yeah, we did this. this way since 10 years, 15 years. We don't do it another way.

Jawad:

Okay. So not open to any new, innovative ideas.

Semih:

No, I wasn't proposing new kind of products. And solutions. I just was questioning the methods and processes used and the single most gave an answer was so we doing this since 20 years and I'm experienced Why should we change?

Jawad:

If it's working, why

Semih:

Yeah, it's working. And as a young adult, Just don't say something against it. You just asking one question and then don't really ask a question. And the third example was the performance reviews where my bus gave me a review every six months. and I was feeling like not comfortable with the way I worked. My performance was weak. Oh, when I just looked back. I never, and then I never heard one single negative. Word from my boss. So he always told me, yeah, doing fine. Here is the race. and. That's good.

Jawad:

You're basically going on a corporate ladder and nobody's questioning it.

Semih:

no. So during this time, I got a raise. I go to promotion. I made some progress within three years of my time there, but I never felt. Comfortable with myself and my work. and this was the first time I sense that something's just. Wrong. in the way we work.

Jawad:

where are you learning anything new or Was this a problem that you were facing two that you fought. Okay, I'm just going through this route on. I'm not learning anything new. I just keep repeating the same tasks over and over.

Semih:

what I learned was nothing. sustainable that I could use somewhere else. The things I learned was how to get through specific politics in the department. to talk to hierarchies in order to get. I want. so how to behave in this very specific environment. This is something I learned. And some formal things. like how do mainframes work? Stuff in the it department. But I didn't have the feeling that I was making a leap and I'm getting into a new level of myself.

Jawad:

What was your job title there?

Semih:

I was a project. and provide a manager for the it department. And we. maintained the whole it infrastructure for Daimler and Mercedes-Benz.

Jawad:

Which is essentially a parts of the company that actually needs to keep up with the tech that's going on in the world. But you found the hard time. Convincing them off doing new things.

Semih:

Yeah.

Jawad:

6:32

Okay. So you're at that stage now and you're having all those issues. So you're three years in, What's happening now.

Semih:

So I feeling that something is going wrong and luckily A friend just came by, he worked at IBM and said, Hey I feel you feeling unhappy there. Why not joining our company. as a consultant, as a manager management consulting, I was young. I wanted to travel. And I accepted the offer and I joined IBM as a consultant. And a thought that this is a more. Dynamic a more challenging learning environment. And started my project there. So this was my next career step.

Jawad:

All right. So this is the first step into consulting.

Semih:

Yes.

Jawad:

How was that?

Semih:

It was interesting because I went from a pretty strict 35 hours a week. where I could clock my times. And could take times off into a environment where I had to work like 60 hours. 70 hours per week Almost doubled and I was completely dropped into cold water. Like one of my first project, I needed to present something to a client on my first day in a topic I knew. Wasn't aware of never heard of. so stuff like this happens

Jawad:

She'll give us an example. So you were dropped on a project. You didn't know much about what happened? give us some context to that.

Semih:

I was in this project in Munich. and I arrived there and my boss just told me, okay. At the end of the day, we have this presentation and we need to explain our customer. Our decision on this topic. And I want you to be there. And I heard that you did already something in this field. So could you explain this part? And I was like, okay this is my first day at the project. I don't know anything about it. so I to gave me the power point and I just took some notes. I knew from the topic and you before. I just dropped into the presentation. my boss just started. She handed over. I did it. Somehow, and I just survived.

Jawad:

8:39

Okay. I assume you managed to get through.

Semih:

8:42

Yeah. So this was the first time I experienced that jumping into the cold. Water's not something actually bad. And. I always leveled up. When I was jumping into the cold water This was one of the main learnings. During my first years at IBM.

Jawad:

So you found the most benefit when you had literally no idea about what's happening or just a little bit. They threw you in there and then you have to figure it out on your own. And that's when you learned the most. That's very common in entrepreneurship, right?

Semih:

Yeah. Yeah. This is one thing. I'll still love an entrepreneurship that. You get into completely new topics and have to adapt really fast. And come up with new solutions. and this was maybe one of the baby steps. I made two lots. My. Current position.

Jawad:

Did you face the same bureaucracy? That you were facing in Mercedes-Benz.

Semih:

It was still there, but it was less. so I came up with completely new forms Of work. So we hadn't a fixed desk And our headquarters. I had more freedom. bureaucracy was better. However, I encountered one thing, which. Really killed myself confidence. There. Which was empathy.

Jawad:

can you explain on that?

Semih:

Yeah. So one of my first projects there. In middle of Germany. So I started off, it was my first day and the project and I was introduced to the colleagues there and my bosses. So lunchtime came and I asked my colleagues, Hey, how about going to lunch? Let's do some lunch and we just stood up. walked the few first meters and then I noticed, Oh, Geez. I forgot my ID cards to pay at the container at the restaurant. I went back I just searched for my tech and I got it and went back and no colleague was waiting for me. on my first day and I just rushed into the container got my food on the plates. looked out for my colleagues there and saw them on the left back. and I went there and they sat on the table. There were like seven people, And no free seat available. And I had to sit next to them. Eating alone. My lunch.

Jawad:

This feels like high school. It's your first day in high school. And he was trying to get to know people, but you can't sit at the cool table

Semih:

Yeah. I felt like I could never be my whole self during this periods. And, It was always this feeling of you're not good enough. you don't connect to these people. I just sense that something is wrong. It was the feeling that I'm not on the right place. So the thing that I'm doing most of the time during my day, Isn't fulfilling. And it isn't pushing me forward. I felt like a point of senselessness. So. What I'm doing, doesn't make a difference. It doesn't benefit. Me or to my surroundings. I felt sad. Didn't felt welcomed. I just felt that I need to change something that was like, Gut feeling. the first year was okay. I'm into this and really consulting and I was stuck. In into, into my work and then. It became. An urgent feeling, but I needed a long time until I made another decision.

Jawad:

What was because I feel like a lot of people. Face the same issues. They're just the job. I mean, you were to just explain, this seems like a very common thing that's happening in our world. So you felt like you're just the part of the machine. And any day you can be replaced. Or was it. You know, you're not learning something new. There has to be something that's kind of like pushing you, right.

Semih:

Yeah, and for me it's most of the time and now I can state it better. It's the. It's a feeling of evolving. Sort of self evolving, like getting into a better self. making the upgrade. learning So I didn't have the feeling that I could and decided a couple of reasons. Like I said before, bureaucracy empathy, like feeling welcomed, being my whole self during work. And. It really needed to. Phil and grow two additional years until I could finally make a decision and quit. So it was a very urgent feeling at the end, and it was evolving from my time at Mercedes Benz until IBM until I made it.

Jawad:

Want you to hold the thought and I want us to go back to empathy. So this is the most repeated thing from top world CEOs. They all say empathy. This is the one trait that you need to have as a leader. How do you define it?

Semih:

So for me, empathy is. A way of connecting to someone else. Understanding his or her views. To be able to make. Better decisions. So. In theory. even if I take one person that has completely different and opposed to use to me, if I'm sitting in that. person and if I really get into his or her thoughts, I would do the same things as this person in theory. And if you, if you understand This theory. things get easier and, you understand why certain people do certain things. And you can collaborate a lot better than. If you just. Stick to yourself. Do your own views. And try to change things. So, this is my approach too. Empathy.

Jawad:

How you define empathy is trying to understand where the other person comes from. So if they made a decision at work, That you don't agree with. Maybe before. Hating on them. You should try to understand why did they make that decision? I don't understand. Why that was the right choice.

Semih:

Correct. So this helps you too. Engage with your own worldviews. And to see that you're also an irrational person. And in the end to evolve yourself. And secondly, and this is more an egoistic approach. To make better decisions and to. Convince people. if you really believe in something, if you understand the other person and to make better arguments, So I see this as in. A altruistic thing to do. To be. To to show empathy.

Jawad:

Amazing. I mean, I think empathy is. Missing from our leadership on the world. And from our. people who are employed, it's usually my way is the right way. And my view of the world is the right view. And everyone else's is just not right.

Semih:

Yeah. So. Another very concrete example would be. Feedback performance reviews. My boss just gave me positive performance reviews, but if he would have shown empathy into my view, I'm a young person. Doesn't know where to start, how his work is. When he would have shown empathy to me. He would have gave me like better feedback and more feedback that could help me to evolve So. I think Showing empathy could solve a lot of problems in, in current businesses.

Jawad:

I heard you mentioned feedback too.

Semih:

Yeah. A huge topic. also for hour. Current products in our agency. I think the way we give feedback is totally flawed. we just try to not offend someone. Just don't make bad feelings. and this is the totally wrong way to go. and we think of feedback as something negative, something. Disturbing, but feedback, if you have. Human centric. Positive approach is something that makes you evolve. and there are two sides of feedbacks. Receiver and the giver, both of them have to know that this is something positive. And. Makes people better. you give the right feedback, radical, honest feedback, And you receive it. Well, you can really develop yourself a lot faster and better than just. Don't give any feedback or just positive feedback. Which is one of the most common things we do. current structures and organizations, or we tend to do it super negative and say, You're an asshole. You're doing. Everything wrong. So we on both, both extremes here.

Jawad:

I feel that, companies need to start working on. The culture inside for it to be accepting of one another, a perfect example of this or not perfect, but a company that I'm impressed by and I met people who work there is Netflix. You can go to a Netflix office in Berlin or in San Francisco or in South Korea. And you would feel like you're in the same office. It's crazy. The environment and the culture they have is built on feedback. And accepting each other. And if someone is giving you good feedback or bad feedback, You're supposed to take it with an open heart and try to understand why they think that. And at the same time, the person who's giving you feedback is also trying to understand your points of view of the world. So you guys can meet somewhere and match. And Netflix has done an extremely well job at this. even the CEO, he just released a book about this. I forgot the name, but it's about the Netflix culture. I think that's their strategy for the win that they're going for.

Semih:

it's, it's crucial in our current and complex times to adapt new forms of feedback, feedback, culture. Just imagine a typical day-to-day situation. You're waiting for a parking lot in your car and somebody else gets it. When you wait in line for 10 minutes, you can either say, Hey, you asshole. And then just drive away. But what would be the effect of it? Nobody would have any benefit of it. Or you could just go to him and say, Hey, I'm waiting here since 10 minutes, I'm having this urgent meeting. and I want to have that parking and this would help him to make a better decision. Next time.

Jawad:

I agree. Let's jump back and go to your. Almost quitting. IBM. What's happening there.

Semih:

So I began reading some books about lean startup. Design thinking. And new ways of work. When I was trying to build some kind of business for myself, one idea was to build a kind of Airbnb for sports. Like hook up with someone who wants to jog or wants to play some table tennis, something. and trying to find new ways of, of validating that idea and came across a lot of methods and tools to do that. And I was trying to do this next to my job. failed a couple of times. Did a lot of things wrong. but I noticed that this is the thing I want to do. I want to work on my own ideas and own projects. And just gave me like the final hit to just quit and do something for myself.

Jawad:

Did you get a taste of it somewhere else? Or. Where are you doing it in parallel while having a job?

Semih:

Yeah, while having a job. So I managed to get to reduce my hours too. Four per day. And this was a huge game changer for me because I finally got the time too. Like learn something else. And I began reading books and I began reading blogs and. I had this idea of the sports platform. And so I began to connect both my, my theory and my idea. And I learned, I learned pretty fast. And I did this in parallel for six months until I quit. And without these reduction in time. it would have taken a lot more time to finally Jump off the ship.

Jawad:

Probably double the time. when you quit, did you already have the idea that you're going to start. Or you already started, which idea was that?

Semih:

So I already had the idea together with two other friends. And yeah, so I had something already in mind before I quit.

Jawad:

What was it?

Semih:

we wanted to build software to do another ticks for a software as a service. So we always had Google analytics on our websites. And we just hated it because nobody understood the numbers. Visited with this visitor mean? so we thought we did have to do analytics. In another way more actionable. And we started to build out the software. And uh, we failed again. during this one year we had this funding. And during this time, We gained a lot of insights on really how to work and validate ideas better within a team. And do it remotely in like 2016, 17. And when our funding ended. We need it. We wanted to work together. although we failed. And we also sell. So how do we make money? How do we make money? And, so one of our old clients approached and asked, Hey, you did the startup thing. Could you just tell us how you worked? And this was the beginning of our agency and we began to sell. Workshops where we showed how startups work to validate an idea pretty fast.

Jawad:

Well, so you had product market fit. Before, even the idea came. So the client came to you and told you what they want. Okay. Yeah, we can do that

Semih:

Yeah. So they said, Hey, send me, I heard you do something with like startups and ideas. How do you, how do you do it? How I heard you? You welded idea pretty fast. Told me about this idea of lean startup. Just come up by and tell something about it.

Jawad:

Well, okay. So that was the start of Stripe.

Semih:

Yes. So this was the start of our agency and, We started off, like with this more stuff and building products But since a couple of years, we realized that we have another why and passion. And this is like the culture design topic and to change organizations. Old organizations. To help them. Be fast and survive these, these uncertain times.

Jawad:

when you start to doubt strive, it was based on helping big companies. Flatten their hierarchy. And act. As a startup.

Semih:

Yeah, so we built. So I'll focus was to help them build innovative products. And in order to build innovative products, you have to work differently. This is the way. they already accepted a new, but what we've learned is only to be innovative, you have to have different kinds of work, but in order to survive and to make your employees happy, you have to integrate new ways of work. So our focus shifted from building innovative products. To changing the culture design in order to. Help them to, evolve and. Survive in the future.

Jawad:

it feels like.

Jawad (2):

This is the struggle that we're seeing. And a lot of companies and people are noticing this morning. When we're currently shifting into what they're calling the passion economy. And people are just sick of being told what to do and the feeling like they're just on the porch of the big machine and they could be replaced at any time. They can just bring someone else who's cheaper and do it. And I feel that people feel like this. And now they want a shift. And if companies are not willing to adapt to this new reality, That people want more people want to feel like they belong in a company. They want to feel like the porch of a community. Soon enough, all those companies are just gonna die because nobody's going to want to work there. And what what's your doing is your strength to aid them? In that shift. but From an employee's perspective. What can they do?

Semih:

So. Basically, if you try to change a culture. Which is absolutely necessary. Currently, what we did before was we did the top-down approach. We said, okay, there is, there are new ways of work, their scrum, agile stuff, like this design thinking. And CEO's began to do a top-down and say, okay, we going to use scrum within our whole organization. And this will fix all of our problems. But this is the wrong approach because there's no one size fits for all. Solution to make your organization better, faster, and adaptable to complex situation. So, what you need to do is to start bottom up, start at the employee and the teams and ask them. So what is holding you back? In doing your best work. And these people will say different kinds of things, So one team will say, Oh, we're sitting 70% of our time sitting in meetings. Or another will say our decision making process is based on just own beliefs and thoughts instead of like systematic approaches. And what do you need to do is to help these teams finding these tensions? and. Implementing new kind of experiments and practices they've didn't use before. And see if that works for them because not every practice will work for every team. As though you need to build in the anti Nita books. Adapt. And continuous learning teams. in order to make a big change happen. And this change, doesn't start from the top. It starts from the button.

Jawad:

Some of our audience are employees. Some of them are entrepreneurs. Some of them are thinking about starting their idea. How would you advise them? As an employee or as an entrepreneur. To approach this right from the start or at their current job, what can they do?

Jawad:

So effect this type of change in their company, because. that if you start changing yourself, In a company environment and people are impressed by that. Then you can replicate it. And if you're an entrepreneur, you can implement this right from the beginning. So the culture. Grows with you. As the company grows. So, what would you. Tell them to do, or the best piece of advice that you can actually give them?

Semih:

So the first thing I began to notice is that I was also in my corporate time. I needed to looking into myself more. And what I did was I always got into the victim position. So like I told you, I was always thinking, I'm giving you these new ideas and these new kind of thoughts, and you're just not getting it. And. Like being a self victim, being the victim here is the easiest part. Your, your lizard brain and our bodies are so connected and built that we always get into the victim position. So these guys won't listen to me. And they do everything wrong. And you should step out of this because it's a natural reaction of your body and of yourself, your subconsciousness. And you should more think of, so what can I really do in order to make this, this running? And if you think of it, there will be a lot of chances to get through and to make your ideas. Get a life. And if we'd really doesn't work. And if you really tried it. you will get somewhere else. You can get somewhere else. You have, you have the chance to do it. But in my opinion, if you get out of comfort zone of your victim position, And really start thinking of what you can actually do in order to realize your project or your idea. I think you will have a lot of ways to do it.

Jawad:

Do you mind if we play out a scenario? So. let's say I want to start a project. And I have a boss. every time I go to my boss. Say no.

Semih:

So you have this project in mind? So why not? Kind of. Start building. A first prototype a for first tangible assets. So the first thing you do is you have this idea in your mind, did you pitch it? And nobody says, yeah, I was going to do it. So why not making the first step? And making something tangible, something you could show off your new project. And asking people for feedback in your company to say, is that a good thing? will work? And these people will give you all some feedback for example, and say, yo, your new project, sick. It's awesome. And you get like 10 feedback loops of these colleagues saying this, and then you go back to your boss and saying, look, this is what I made. This is some kind of prototype. I made, and I showed this to this and this and this colleague and they said, this is really awesome. This will help us. Kill our meetings. And save a lot of time. different kinds of argument position towards your boss. And I certainly believe that your boss in this position, we'll say, okay, This, maybe we should try.

Jawad:

So it's essentially doing the research, making sure that what's you're coming up with is just not. Oh, I have a cool idea. And you just pitch it. No, do the work, do the research and invest some time in it and then go pitch it and say, So, this is why it could work. And this is why it will not work based on one, two and three.

Semih:

Yeah.

Jawad:

And do you see the majority or a lot of people are just on the idea part and they pitched ideas gets rejected to look off my bosses.

Semih:

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean there are faults. From the bosses site. but if you get into the self victim pose it's always the boss, but, I really truly believe that that if you show something really tangible to the boss, validated with feedback, And get into pitching and pitch your ideas better and get better in what you're doing. Your boss will say yes. And some sort of time and we are always in that idea phase and going, Hey, I've this idea? Oh, you, you, you rejected my idea. I feel offended. Yeah, it's bad. It's a bad feedback kind of loop, but still, what can you do? What is in your hands? What. Can you do an, a next step in order to get this going?

Jawad:

Amazing. I love that. I think everybody should. Actually start implementing there. Projects in that way. it's, we'll increase the odds of them getting. The project through. Okay. You're starting out your company. It doesn't go the way you like it. And then. You have a kind of offered a pivot so that your clients tell you what they actually want, which is the perfect position to be in How does it go from there? do you face any problems in building out this new prototype? this new project that you want to give to your customers. Obviously you did not even have that in mind. That you're going to offer classes and training courses. On. How to act like a startup. How did you acquire that knowledge for you to even offer them that.

Semih:

Yeah, you have to. You have to experience these things in order to be able to teach these. So we started off building this analytics product. And we always ask ourselves. Hey, how can we build something better instead of just building this thing? and show it to our clients and they say, okay, this is shit. So, we did these mistakes. And we did read some books. We searched in the internet. We talked to people about new methods and processes, and we're trying to adapt them. And so this is the thing we did and now teach others to do. We always, we're evolving our operating system within our team. And are now like strive 6.0 something. and. we learn things. We experienced them. We try to adapt them within our daily workflow. And after like one month we sit down and say, this worked, and this didn't work. Why didn't it work? Okay. Should we try another run? No. Yes. And then, we getting into that self improvement, self learning organization? We try to. Implement at larger organizations.

Jawad:

A lot of people when they start off, they're doing a lot of research. the spend. Months doing research before they actually jump into the action part. And I found from my experience the most I have learned. Is that when I started doing all my research that I used to do, actually most of it gets thrown in the trash because. When I started doing it, everything changes. Nothing is just as the playbook. That doesn't exist. that's kind of. The difference between you starting out to venture as an entrepreneur, when you're trying to, to change the status quo. you're trying to innovate versus taking a proven business model. That comes with, entrepreneurship for dummies if you're trying to create something new, There's no research or guidebook. That's going to take you there. but. If you're trying to go for a business model that's proven for sure. Do the research and then you will literally find the guide. Step-by-step. Who to target gets on. This is your crowd and this is where you should have your coffee shop or whatever. You're trying to go for it. What's when you're trying to build out something new, like you did. You're trying to come up with ways and strategies for companies that they've drunk to implement. There is no gate. There's no research. You our learning on the spot. And iterating and then providing again and then getting feedback and providing it again. And you're just constantly shipping it out to see what's the feedback. a lot of people miss that when they're starting out their business,

Semih:

Yeah. Absolutely. I would absolutely agree. Maybe one thing that helped me too. Understand the world. Better. Better way was like you said when you try to build something new, this is a complex process. You can't like foresee the future. You don't know that your research that you go trying to. Integrate into your project into new product will work actually. And in complex environments, you don't know the effects of your doings. So just start doing, just start learning and adapt pretty fast instead of understanding everything. Beforehand, like building a new project. Isn't like building an engine because you know, when you build an engine, if you do this, this will come out. But if you try to build a new product or set up a new project, you're in a complex environment where you don't know what happens. If you put one step implement one step, you don't know what comes out. So you need to experiment and adapt pretty fast. and understood this differentiation between things.

Jawad:

I agree. I mean, I did the same mistake and I'm probably sometimes still a victim of this. Or I want to do this, this sounds cool. And then I start going into the research process and I'm researching for weeks. And then I stopped myself at a moment. I need to stop researching. I need to start doing. And then literally two steps or three steps in the project. I'm like, Oh my God. Most of my research actually bullshit. Like, it's not going to benefit me in any way. So I just wasted three weeks of my time. Maybe I just understood a bit about the market. But the actual implementation of it or building out it was useless. Like zero. And I agree with you on that. Probably the best way to jump in. Try it out. See how it works. Move fast. break things. Is that what Mark Zuckerberg says? Right.

Semih:

he did. He did. And if you got that feeling of tension, Of unease. Just try to lean into that feeling. Of the new and try to embrace it. This is something also, which, which helped me. Making decisions that.

Jawad:

So me. thank you very much for taking the time. I would like to end this with a question. And actionable question. Our audience learned something. What can we help them with to take the action part? Do you have a question that they can act on?

Semih:

So my question would. Help you, if you have that feeling of unease and you don't feel welcomed in. Couldn't find your passion. And which question to help me was. So if I give you $5 million euros, whatever. And you made your trip to Maui. And you had your break for one year and you bought your new home and everything's done. Okay. No. What, what would you do?

Jawad:

Interesting. I really like that question. And is that to kind of figure out. The actual thing that you want, like let's remove the dust and find the diamond.

Semih:

Yeah, it helped me to find my light house. where do I want to go? And the way to the lighthouses? Maybe far, maybe close. I don't know, but. The question helped me to find what I wanted to do.

Jawad:

Thank you so much. Thank you for seeing at a time. This was amazing. I appreciate this. And hopefully we will have you again soon.

Semih:

Thank you.