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Max Haining On The No Code Movement | Episode 08

Description

Max started the 100daysofnocode.com community

He tells us about his journey on learning how to use no code tools and how he saw an opportunity to create a community that will support people who are on the same journey.

How we can learn to use no code tools to build our ideas

A few projects that were created using no code tools such as

we have a discussion on Twitter spaces vs clubhouse? which is better?

Twitters bullshit complex and problems within the Twitter community

Find Max on twitter @HainingMax

Transcript

Jawad:

0:00

Welcome back to thinking backwards. Today's episode is pretty exciting. And we're talking about no-code tools. Now you might be thinking no code tools. What is that? Well, max, our guest today is going to tell us all about it. He has built a community around this movement. Hundred days of no code. Where people get together and start using those tools to build applications. That thousands of people are using today. Even my website is built on no-code tools. It's such a powerful movement. Max is gonna tell us all about it, about the power of community. How he is fostering the growth. Of this movement. I hope that you enjoyed this episode. It is a blast. All right. Welcome max. Thanks for coming on to thinking backwards. I hope you're having a good day. This is going to be a blast, man. I'm excited.

Max:

1:03

Yeah. For having me on, I really excited for this.

Jawad:

1:09

All right, max, what the hell? Is no-code. Like, what is it everybody's talking about it. It's all over the place. I've seen even some brands like Prada. I think, or one of those fashion brands talking about no code and making shirts with like no code. The designs on them. You're the guy with no code hundred days of no code. What is it? What are we talking about here?

Max:

1:36

Yeah. Very good question. There is so many ways of expressing what it is. So I, I have yet to come up with like a super clean. Like every time I say. A definition. Is different. But for me, Generally it revolves around like the comparison between textual communication with the computer. To visual. So Normally like. You create software by like communicating with a computer by text. So you're, you're writing code essentially. But with no code. You're doing it visually. So you're actually communicating with software or laptop, whatever you call it. Visually, so dragging and dropping things onto a screen. The kind of like prebuilt components or as we probably know it better like Lego that you're just sort of dragging and dropping onto a screen and then bringing in configuring together and sort of a useful. Functional and usable way. For the end-user. So I would kind of say that it's It's basically a way for people to build. Software apps, websites without having to write. A single line of code and now code is involved because ultimately it will be tools that we're using, like bubbles, Zapier Air table, they're all built on code. So that's kind of the, the irony, but it's just sort of removed from our, our viewpoint, if you like to the point where we're just actually doing the fun bit, which is dragging and dropping, as I sad to say, and, and that may be simplifying it, but that's generally the, the, the best way of looking at it.

Jawad:

3:09

Amazing. And. Why did you, like, what did you see in it that made you think. Yeah. This is going to be a big I've used a couple of them. I've used notion mainly I must say, but I don't think notion started out. As the no code tool, it was kind of. Just the tool for you to use the people turned into, you know, a no code tool for you because you can build up a lot of things on it. Did other apps start the same way? Like bubble and all of them, or were they targeted for, you know, making life easy for people who want to make ops websites, all of that.

Max:

3:48

Yeah. No, a good, good question. Firstly. Yeah, I think I've said to you before, but your, your notion site is is really nice. It's super clean. So if anyone hasn't sort of checked out what, like a notion site can look like or be like, then, then, then check out a drug. site for thinking backwards. Cause it's, it's brilliant. But yeah, so some tools and this is really a marketing thing, but some tools expressly were made for the no-code market, they were made to help. The visual developers create more powerful web applications without having to write any code. And then some tools of kind of like Intentionally or unintentionally jumped on this, this, this hype wagon and have suddenly become no code tools. Say so we've got things like type form that we we've probably used for like five, six years that suddenly now rebranded to a no-code tool, which is, which is to be fair. But it's, it's, it's just interesting how. The tools have now been kind of reframed, but most of the tools we're seeing now are starting as no code tools because we're in this. It's no code like era, if you like. So, so it's, it's kind of the, the thing to do to, to, to start as one. But tools that we've, we've come to know over a long period of time have suddenly become. No-code tools as well. Yeah.

Jawad:

5:11

When did you get on it? Like when did you figure out, okay, this is going to be big. I really like working on this. So I'm going to create something out of it, which is the hundred days of no code. Which is essentially a community now that is. Doing really good. I see everywhere. So.

Max:

5:27

Yeah, sorry. For spamming, spamming your feet. With lots of a hundred days, retweets and hashtags and all this mat. And that stuff, but I know some people would probably have to like put it on a yeah. Sort of silent or whatever it's called. But yeah. In terms of like when the, the, the penny dropped and I was like, Oh, wow. Like, you know, this is this. Super cool. I think it was first, like my first introduction was reading an article by Ryan Hoover from product hunt. And he just kind of. You know, introduce this idea that there's these tools out here that we can start using. I think this was in May, 2018. That actually allow us to like, In a, in a admittedly like hacky and lean way, create things that would otherwise only have been able to be done by coders. And that was like, Wow. That's incredible because at the time when I read that article, which was probably mid 2019, Or. Late 2019. I was really like feeling the effects of not having a technical edge in my skillset. So I'd just come off the back of Helping with a start up. There was three of us and we were all non technical and that didn't really bode well for creating at the time. An Airbnb for storage thing. And we, you know, we. We, we flopped, it was, it was good, fun, but we flopped and one of the reasons was because we couldn't actually make the thing. That we wanted bring into the world and that kind of planted that seed of damn I need a technical edge. So when I read that Ryan Hoover article is that, wow, this actually is probably more like realistic for me to get than I ever force. It was because the only other route before that point was learning to code.

Jawad:

7:12

Yeah. I mean, I can't imagine that. People that have this exact same problem. And A certain point. I had it. To be honest. I was like, this is killing me. I everything I need to do on my website or my application or anything I'm depending on someone else. And in the initial stages of a any start up, A lot of people outsource because you can't afford hiring someone on, you know, paying all the premium stuff for them. So we outsourced to another company and then you're dependent on that company. Is this the horrible Louisville? I definitely see that. And. You thought, okay, this is amazing. I need to start working on it. I need to figure out what, what. What it was, what did you do? What was that?

Max:

7:56

Should we go?

Jawad:

7:57

thought process there. Cause this was the early 2018.

Max:

8:01

Yeah, no. Of course. Yeah. So yeah, as you said, it was kind of the, the, the penny dropped, the seed was planted and I said, okay, so I need to do something about this, but. At the time, it wasn't in a position to like in a dedicate time to learning this thing. So because of course, like it's marketed as. You know, you can build things in five minutes, et cetera. You know, in some tools you can, but like, it's not as easy as like people say it is and you still have to learn it. It's still a skill to be learned and say, I didn't have the time at that point to like go all in on it. So it kind of just sort of festered away in my mind, thinking, gosh, I need to get on this. Like probably six months later, I'm in. Sort of actually early 20, 20, so early of last year. That was when I was starting to get this itch of like, I need to start using this now I'm getting a few ideas in my mind. I really need to start leveraging this, this tech that's kind of there, but, but it's still quite unknown. So that was coming into February, 2020, just as like lockdown was emerging across, across the world, I guess. And that was for me, like the optimal time of thinking. Hang on, we've got loads of time on our hands now. Like wha what else are you meant to do apart from. Like read books and I don't know. Go free online courses and all this stuff. And that was kind of when I realized that was the moment to start learning to know code.

Jawad:

9:35

And this turned into a hundred. The challenge starts. For yourself.

Max:

9:42

Yes.

Jawad:

9:43

Okay, so you

Max:

9:44

Yeah, exactly. Yes. So I had been aware of the a hundred days of code challenge. So when I had to like, just flirted with the idea of learning to code, I'd looked around. Okay. There's some cool initiatives going on. A hundred days of code sounds a bit extreme, but it's probably what I need to like get over the line. So I'll probably do that if ever I need to learn code But having that in my mind. And knowing I wanted to learn to know code and having lots of time on my hands at that point. In time. So last year and knocked down. I sort of put two and two together and It was like, hang on a minute. Like there needs to be a hundred days of no code. And yeah, I was the first person to just like announced on Twitter that I was going to do it. Simply put out a landing page to saying, if anyone wants to join me, like, please do. It's a fun thing we're doing and the more of us are doing it at the same time. The easier it will be. That was it. I captured a few emails and started sending out a small newsletter, just like. Amalgamating like the highlight tweets or updates from that week on Twitter. And that was it. But yeah, I was kind of the first to, to to. To start it and and You've also had on this, this podcast was also the first person that I roped into doing it. So I said, lick. I'm going to need someone to like, like, say that they're doing it with me. Otherwise I'm going to look like a real, like weirdo. So I was just like, can you like do this? Or like, say that you're doing this with me. Yeah, just to like soften the blow and like no one likes this on Twitter.

Jawad:

11:31

There now. They're not fitted. Good.

Max:

11:36

Well, exactly. Yeah. Like I went in with nice soup. Super low expectations. And do. Like all ever was, was just a way for me to like to learn learn how to no-code. So like any, like. You know, grandiose idea of turning a hundred days into something more. Was it wasn't there at that point? It was just me laying out a hundred days to learn this new skill. So I could create, I dunno, like random ideas I had that weren't a hundred days of no code. A hundred days of no code was just a means for me to get somewhere else. At that point in time.

Jawad:

12:13

What did you build in your first hundred days?

Max:

12:17

Yeah. That's a good question. Say. I built a So I went kind of deep in bubble which was a little bit of a mistake. I would not recommend any beginner too. Go straight in there first. I found that really tough. And it kind of was a painful first, you know, 50, 60 days, if not more. And. If I didn't probably have that real eagerness to learn, I probably would have been knocked off the bandwagon. Before I re really got started, because it was just like, Oh, actually, this isn't that easy. I've been told a lie, like this is actually really hard. But um,

Jawad:

12:59

five minutes to build whatever you need.

Max:

13:02

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I mean it, yeah. It really doesn't. In my a hundred days was, was first a. It's like a positive story tracker. So in my local area near me is a place called Camden in London. Yeah, thank you, yeah. No, it's Yeah. It's it's a fun place to be in London and basically I. I just wanted to. You know, a project for me to work on, but also quite a nice thing was to actually, instead of all the negative, like cycle of news, it was happening at that point in time, you know? It was, it was. I mean, if you tuned into the news at that point in time, it was just awful and it kind of, it still is. But just to like for something different into that news cycle I wants to capture. Like the, the positive stories that are coming out from the COVID like response. So seeing what people were doing, like helping their neighbors. The nuns, all that kind of good feeling. Stories. Into one place. So the, the, the site, it was super simple on bubble where you could log in, or you could. You could literally look at the sites, see a map with little pins on it, and then hover over those pins and see. A positive story in your local area. This is super simple, but like, it was just quite a nice thing to do. And we got a few crowdsource stories in and it didn't go big. Didn't wasn't a massive thing, but it was just a nice little place or safe Haven that people come just for a sprinkle of spot positive positivity. If you like.

Jawad:

14:42

That's amazing. Honestly, that's amazing. I would have loved to see that. I mean, that. Like I said it was so toxic the news. I mean, the news is always toxic. Like you

Max:

14:53

Yeah. Yeah.

Jawad:

14:54

I never watch it because it was this new thing I wanted to see you. Like what the hell is Corona, you know?

Max:

15:00

Yeah.

Jawad:

15:01

yeah. I got so paranoid. I started feeling sick when I'm not sick. You. Like, I'm just, I'm like, do I have an itchy throat? my God.

Max:

15:10

Yeah.

Jawad:

15:10

Yeah, Yeah, it was, it was so bad.

Max:

15:14

Hmm.

Jawad:

15:15

That's actually amazing. Okay, so you built this website.

Max:

15:19

Hmm.

Jawad:

15:20

Positive news. I love by the way, the whole principle of positive news. I wish there's more positive news channels. Just saying the good stuff are happening in the world. And um, Okay. Where do you go from there?

Max:

15:35

Sure.

Jawad:

15:36

I'm going to tell you what I see. And what people. What people are saying, like, from our perspective, 100 days of no code.

Max:

15:43

That'd be great. Cause I think I just messaged you before. Like I've kind of become when you're in it, you come blind to it. So I don't really know like what the perception is externally. So I'd love for you or like, Thoughts and yeah, just, just what, what it looks like from the outside, looking in.

Jawad:

15:59

I remember when we talked, which was probably a year ago. I was interested by like, NOCO just, when I heard that I'm like, This sounds cool. All right. You're doing it. And we got on the call and you explained to me what. What was happening? And Then, you know, I got so busy with work. I didn't even have time to learn anything on no code.

Max:

16:22

Hmm.

Jawad:

16:23

after that, I started to like more and more. I'm seeing people like posting. Today's like they won. A hundred days of no code. They 100. You know, they 50 and people are posting what they're doing and. I started seeing like this growth of the community and people are talking about it. And then. I saw you on, on like a few zoom calls with some pretty cool people from Twitter or The tech world. So I've seen this. Growth from our side. And I saw a community getting built. And As we saw in the past year communities. It's the thing like everybody wants to have a community companies are turning into communities to build their brand. Because they realize that, okay, this is the new thing. Like I forgot. What's the name of HubSpot.

Max:

17:18

Mm.

Jawad:

17:19

just bought. My first million podcast and they bought the hustle.

Max:

17:24

Yeah.

Jawad:

17:24

has an extremely strong community I'm part. To the hustle of community, it's an amazing community and they just bought it. They're doing something completely different, but they see the power of the community. And then stripe wants indie hackers. I mean, Stripe is FinTech.

Max:

17:42

Yeah.

Jawad:

17:42

buying indie hackers.

Max:

17:45

Yeah.

Jawad:

17:45

everybody's seeing the power of the community. Of a community. And I got this question for you also from Twitter, from people saying. How do you look at this community? Right. How did you grow it? How do you nurture it? What do you think is the next step for you?

Max:

18:01

Of course. Yeah. And thanks for the. Yeah, the kind words and so it's. Nice to hear that. Externally, it sort of, it feels like it's moving as well. Because when you're in the weeds, it just, you always kind of just moving on to the next thing and don't really have a chance to reflect and. And sort of see where it's gone or going So I appreciate that sort of perspective, firstly but in terms of yeah, how, how it really started. So, so it was. Principally like a challenge at first it was a fun little, a hundred days of no code hashtag when it started. So as a means for people to just learn every day in Mike Crow. Bite-sized chunks. And. I think. In that like, Doing that itself is hard and tough thing to do a hundred days. Like. It's not like a, you know, I walk in the park. Like it's a, it's a, it's a bit of a head down like uncomfortable thing to do. So. I think in, in that, like hardship comes. This need for like support and positivity and a sense of camaraderie amongst people that are also doing that same thing. So. Probably a couple of months after I launched. The actual challenge itself. I kind of thought, hang on a minute. This, this is perfect or needs to be this isn't a necessity for the bringing the people that are doing this challenge together. So that's kind of where, like I was like, Oh, okay. Like, Maybe there should be a challenge. Challenge and a community. And. And at the time, yeah, community was all the hype and it still is, of course, but that, that, that, that word was swirling around on Twitter. And I sing, hang a minute. Maybe, maybe this is a community and maybe this, there should be a community in. It made a lot of sense to be a community. So I was kind of where the seed was planted for me. And then that the first step I did really to, to, to coalesce like the people doing it. And now that time there wasn't many but bringing them into one space was simply creating a Slack channel. A Slack group. So keeping it super lean and it still is in a Slack group. There's no fancy software. There's not a custom built thing. It's just in Slack. So I think keeping it lean, keep keeping organic in that first. Period. Was it really important? And not over-engineering anything, it was just simply me providing a space for others to connect on the same journey. That was it. Nothing more there. There's no bells and whistles going on here. And I think that was what I said to you when, when we had our chat I was just like, if you need that sense of accountability in that connection. You know, This is, this is something for you. If you don't, then you can just plow through the a hundred days and, and learn a skill. So. You know so that's kinda how it, it really begun. And then my first. Stuff actions. To, to get it moving.

Jawad:

21:05

Okay. And do most people sign up to go through the a hundred days ASAP or is it. The community parts is helpful. Like the, the, the accountability part is helpful. How do you see

Max:

21:19

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I think some people somebody will have, you know and you know, credit to them, I wouldn't be able to, but some people have just blasted for a hundred days flat. And I'm just looking at thinking, wow, like that's, that's some impressive stuff. That's impressive. Like. Commitment that like in self-discipline, like I can do that. But others, most of us need that, that, that. Yeah, just. Accountability to, to get over the line. And I think, yeah, there's, there's one thing. Around creating a system for people to use. So a hundred days, 30 minutes of learning a day. So there's a system there. But there also needs to be something that drives that momentum and keeps you turning up every day. And that's where the community comes in. So it's kind of system and community. And those two things are quite powerful. A one. Like having them on their own is great. But having that momentum. That's achieved by c'mon combining them, I think is more powerful.

Jawad:

22:23

For sure. I mean. Aye. The accountability part. This is just amazing. I usually try to find an accountability partner for anything I'm trying to do, you know? If it, if it's not one at least a group of people, because. You're bound to fall off the wagon. You. It's just like anything. If you go to the gym with a buddy. They were, you know, who you would push each other. If you go alone. You know, 90% of the people who just quit after a few weeks.

Max:

22:53

Exactly. Yeah.

Jawad:

22:54

yeah. Accountability is. Is honestly like major, major, major. And forth and in anything that you're trying to do.

Max:

23:03

Big time.

Jawad:

23:04

Do you feel. Do you feel a lot of people are struggling with. The self doubt of that part because okay. No, I don't know how to code. And I'm going into this. No code low code. Environment. And I need to start pushing out products. And there's this community and everybody's watching and all of that. Is it. Do you feel that a lot of people They're having this problem with their. They're self doubting themselves. So they're, they're having. This small voice, you know what I'm saying? I don't know. You're not good enough. I mean, this person. Yeah, a full database of. good news. And now it's showing on a map and I have to do something like that. And, you know, There's the struggle, because this is the biggest. part that most people struggle with, you know, You just keep comparing yourself to others. The self-doubt. I don't feel like doing it. I don't want to do it. And it's just the talking that. Like, how do you experience that yourself and the community tool?

Max:

24:07

I think that's such, just such a good point to bring up. It's it really is. And it's not probably spoken about enough. I think. Cause we're kind of. Trying to, to, to think or believe that the coders are the ones that bring ideas to life and build software. I think for a lot of people that, that. That flip that flip in the script of, Oh, now I'm the person that can actually create this. Like, it's kind of. Almost too good to be true or too, too good to. To really think that you can actually be that, that person that can bring your ideas to life as well. I know, you know, some people in the space. Come into it. Very different levels. And for people that come in. The real, like lower echelons of the technical spectrum. It's tough. One, because as we've said before, is, is a tough skill to learn. It's still a skill to learn. But two, there is, there is that technical element to it. You have to learn how to so think like a programmer in some sense, you know, you're still configuring logic flows and workflows. If this, then that, and then that. And kind of setting conditions on that. So it does. It requires a certain way of thinking that you've probably not used to before, because we've never been. No, like people that can't code have never really been builders before. So, so now becoming a builder, there's a lot to think about the design, the user experience, the the way things you know, used by. The end-user, it just, all these things, like, it's not something we're used to, so. For me, that was definitely the case. And still, is that sense of being an imposter? Like can I actually build this super cool idea? I've got in my head. You know, probably a cam, but like, it's not like my, my identity yet, or like I've not fully embraced that like build our identity. And I think that is a lot for. The same for a lot of people.

Jawad:

26:12

Definitely. I love that. You're saying that because I hope when people are listening, they, they, they can see that. Everybody has this same thing. You know, everybody has the same struggle. Everybody feels the imposter syndrome. And it's a good thing. Like I think it was just the embrace that we should learn to to embrace the imposter syndrome. And I always liked. my friends when we're talking or, well, whenever I meet. Oh, like who am I to do this? There's a lot of people that are better than me, their experience in this field. Any of that. The moment you feel this. Know that you're onto something great.

Max:

26:47

Yes.

Jawad:

26:47

that association. Like the moment you start doubting yourself associated with. This is good. Like my brain doesn't want me to do it because this is good.

Max:

26:57

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. and its that classic Phrase, isn't it. Being like in and around people that are like better than you. Is just like, is, is always going to be a good thing. And yeah. I couldn't agree more.

Jawad:

27:16

I want to see. What cools stuff did you see coming out of the no code? Movement. So like what. Cool products or things that you were impressed by. Things we should check out. You know, to get some inspiration. What are some of the cool stuff that.

Max:

27:32

Wow. That is, that is seriously tough. I when you said. I was like drawing a blank thinking, Oh my gosh, I've seen so many cool. Projects, they kind of blur into one, but like, let me, let me have a think. So I think that there's, I mean, to hit on a few things that you can do with no code and some categories of like, build. Like, and then maybe, maybe when, as I'm talking about those categories, Hopefully, I think of one

Jawad:

27:59

All right, let's do it.

Max:

28:01

But basically like some common things. You know, when you're getting started a landing page, like that's. Easiest thing you can do at a landing page with a signup form. Boom. You can get your idea out there. Validate it. Brilliant. Then you're kind of moving into like a directory. So you want to display some information. In a list. There's filterable Daniel, you're kind of moving up that, that spectrum a bit and you're, you're giving people like specific, relevant information that's filterable and easy to use and find and sift through. So. That's that's. That's a project that I see a lot. And then maybe a marketplace. So That's another one that, that you can build in a super intuitive tool, like softer. Or you can make in a really custom way in bubble. And then. You've got people that are creating Like custom bespoke software. So like Microsoft's businesses off the back of no code. And that, I think that's where it gets really, really exciting. So I think the other things. Are like. Oh, exciting. And then that kind of takes it to a new level. So Yesterday. So here I've got, I've got I've got got a project in mind set. So yesterday I saw at demo of what's called community copilot by Karen bull whose. Who's in the space. And he Has essentially built an interface in bubble. That allows community managers like myself too. Manage the community in a, in a CRM like way, but scale that intimacy of interactions and connections, et cetera. As you grow. So. It's fine, you know? You can know a lot about their, your community if it's, you know, 50 to a hundred members, but then when you're kind of scaling to a thousand to have like one dashboard where you can see all your members. Bucketed by. There. Engagement levels. And then. An ability to literally go into each member and then message them straight to Slack or that email. Is, is, is really like useful as a community manager and that's something you can do all in a bubble. And it was created in bubble. But. To, to give you more of a. An idea of it. It's probably best to go and check it out. On. Yeah. On his site, but yeah, it's Karen bull.

Jawad:

30:35

again?

Max:

30:36

It's called community copilot. I know. I'll drop you the link so you can share in the show notes.

Jawad:

30:43

Amazing. Well, that's actually pretty cool.

Max:

30:48

I'm definitely gonna need it, use it. I am using it. Yeah.

Jawad:

30:51

Is there any other alternatives?

Max:

30:53

I think that there are I mean, I mean, there's, there's different versions of it, but this is like, It's sort of definitely one of the first of its kind in the community management space. Yeah. So that, that's what really excites me about it.

Jawad:

31:08

Amazing. It's built all. No code

Max:

31:12

yeah. So it's, it's built building bubble. And yeah, it's just a really good, good. You know, showcase of what you can do.

Jawad:

31:22

Wow. That's amazing. You know, I want the same thing. For my podcast.

Max:

31:26

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Got you. Yeah.

Jawad:

31:28

would love to get like proper analytics on who's listening. Where are they? Who are they all of that? Just to see, I don't like, I don't need names. Just.

Max:

31:37

Sure.

Jawad:

31:38

What are the people. The analytics. Podcasts are horrible.

Max:

31:42

Really. I'd read.

Jawad:

31:44

You know, I would have. Like an episode, a. With like 500 listeners or so. And like this is on one dashboard. And then if I open Spotify, Analytics. It's completely different. Because it's for Spotify only. I'm like, okay, cool. And then I go to Google podcasts and I see how many people listen there. And then I go to Apple podcasts and I see how many people listen there. And all of them are in beta. Like they would see the analytics in beta. And then I add up the numbers and then a compared to the one dashboard that has everything they're completely different. Like the knower, those little messed up. I have no idea who is this thing where they, where they are.

Max:

32:23

Oh, my God.

Jawad:

32:24

yeah, honestly, like I think if someone's listening and interested in podcasts is making. Analytics tool

Max:

32:30

Yeah.

Jawad:

32:31

us. You know,

Max:

32:32

Maybe that's. Yeah, I think that's a super cool project. To work on it. I mean, obviously, like we talk about community blowing up, like. Podcasting you've been. This has been blowing up for, for years now, but it's still, it's just growing and growing and growing. So like yeah, if someone's listening, make that thing. Yeah. That'd be awesome.

Jawad:

32:50

podcasts, like I was looking at that's the other day. And. There's 1.5 million active podcasts in the world.

Max:

32:59

Wow.

Jawad:

33:01

Compared to 550 million blogs.

Max:

33:07

Jeez.

Jawad:

33:07

70 million active YouTube channels.

Max:

33:12

Wow. So super early step.

Jawad:

33:14

super early. I was shocked. I thought there was way more. Because if you open any podcast app, You just. Keep going, you know, it's endless, but it's not a lot. 1.5

Max:

33:23

Wow. Wow. How so. In shape, how how'd you, how'd you see clubhouse sort of changing the. podcast landscape. Is that a question like, is that a thing? Is it not? Yeah. Kind of flipping the tables here, but just intrigued on your perspective.

Jawad:

33:42

I've I've been on clubhouse for a year.

Max:

33:45

Okay.

Jawad:

33:46

I'm not a big fan, honestly, like. I think the hype is way too big on it like.

Max:

33:52

Hmm.

Jawad:

33:53

It's such a huge for me. Huge waste of time. If I open any, any chat room that I need to get on. It's like three, four hours gone immediately.

Max:

34:05

Yeah.

Jawad:

34:06

Is this because it's kind of a live and people are talking about a certain topic and then something. Comes up and you know, we go on another topic and then, Oh no, no, let's jump back. Get back to the topic. And then someone has a question on them. They ask a question on that. It's chaotic. And even the experience itself, I find it a bit. Mediocre. In a way. Like I can't find the cool rooms that I'm interested in. I don't know, navigating through the rooms. Every time I get room zone that I've zero associations to what I like, like just

Max:

34:40

Okay.

Jawad:

34:41

correlation to what I like. So it doesn't like.

Max:

34:44

Sort

Jawad:

34:45

build the feed for me properly, I think. But Twitter spaces.

Max:

34:50

Yeah. So is that, is that that's good. Is that you look, you know, happy with that.

Jawad:

34:57

Twitter, the spaces I'm happy with.

Max:

34:59

Okay.

Jawad:

34:59

Twitter spaces is already built. For me, right. Like this. This is the amount of people I follow. If any of those people that I like following. Open. That's what I space then I know. Okay. This is going to be a good convo well for this specific topic they're talking about, which usually on Twitter, you know, Every person kind of has a thing. generally, like they have this one thing when they, and they talk about other stuff.

Max:

35:25

Exactly.

Jawad:

35:26

I've been on like a few twitter space. This Rooms They were really good. Honestly, they were really good. Clean. Didn't take too much. Like it was 40 minutes, 45 minutes. People who are listening. And the, yeah, the, the finished though. Quick easy, fast. Like a podcast, literally.

Max:

35:42

Yeah.

Jawad:

35:43

listen to it. And you're out, but I don't know. I feel like I'm clubhouse was just a bit too chaotic. That's what I

Max:

35:48

Hmm. Interesting. No, I don't really have a perspective because I've not got either. So yeah, which is probably a good thing. Just just for productivity. But I, I spent way too much time on Twitter as you can probably tell already. So it's exciting, but also like, Ooh. That could be another few hours of my week gone. But I don't have, so yeah. But now this is interesting. Yeah.

Jawad:

36:15

What do you think? Of the Twitter environment. Like what is happening there? I sometimes. Like I leave for a few days or a week or two. Cause I feel it's. Gets a bit too toxic. Let me explain why.

Max:

36:30

Please. Hmm.

Jawad:

36:33

There's a lot of people. Just talking about how to build your Twitter following. And.

Max:

36:41

Yeah.

Jawad:

36:42

And you know, Just, I feel like they're mostly, clickbaits just. Everybody's like, Oh, this is how you get more followers. This is how you get more followers. You need to retweet this and you need to do this and you need to do this. You need to do this. And. I mean, you can see some of them keeping, you know, they keep popping up on my feed and I'm actually seeing like insane growth, like going from 200 followers. Like 10 K and like few months. And Pretty cool. Okay. But I go through their content. And I don't see anything valuable in there. I just see it's kind of. Yeah. Chamath said something and then they took it and then reworded it and then wrote it again, and then they posted it and. You know, thanks for inspiring me or something like that. I don't know. Or. You know tagging. A hell of a lot of people that have a lot of followers and then, you know, One of them or two of them give you a like, or a. And then, boom, that's what it's like when through the roof. And then people will follow you. I feel like there's this a bit of a system like that is kind of bullshitty and sometimes. I fist toxic and I need, I need to break because this is not what I'm interested in, you know? If I'm on Twitter and I really enjoy. Because there's a lot of valuable info there. But those bullshit things. Things keep coming up and. Sometimes they take over my, my feed and I need a break. And he said, I am I okay now I can't deal with this. I think honestly, what do you think about this whole complex that's happening there? Because I cannot cannot be only me.

Max:

38:21

No, no, no. Yeah. No, it's it's, it's certainly not. And I think, yeah, you're completely right. Like The, I think. There are people you know, in the Twitter. Like ecosystem that. As you say, there to grow and there too. To increase their followings. And I think. There's that difference between people like playing a very intentional game. So as you say, doing. It's ticking off the list, like making sure they thank everyone. Which that'd be fine. Like doing Twitter threads in this very like set format they may do like a, an AMA. at some point those are all fine, but there's like, I think some, some people are very intentional about their like growth Strategy on Twitter and a kind of almost ticking off like boxes. And that to me is like inauthentic and. I always think. Like. That I get it. Like you want to grow, but also, like, I don't enjoy that content. I just know that I'm kind of feeding your growth. So like, Oh, tag someone Like the tech spirals, where it's like tag this person, and then it's just like this. Continuous thing and that's again, absolutely fine, but also. You know, you know what you're doing that. You're boosting your exposure to more people and that's again fine. So that's kind of like the more intentional, like playing the game side of Twitter that I'm not so keen on. And then there's the authentic sharing your story building in public. And being you side of Twitter that I like. And I try to be on that side. As much as I can, I've Admittedly ticked some of those boxes of the Twitter, like growth thing. And I catch myself doing it sometimes. Oh, gosh, like I've fallen into this spiral of like this, this, this, this. As you say almost toxic way of we've using Twitter. But I really try and, and just. Share what I know, share what I'm picking up along the way. And hope that someone else. Finds that useful. And, and, and go from there really is like the base point. Just share your learning and see if people find that useful, but also pick other people's brains. You know, there's a wealth of knowledge on Twitter, and I love nothing more than asking questions. I think those are some of the most interesting tweets because you ask a question. And then you get a myriad of awesome responses. So that's yeah, not to, to, to, to go to down that path. That's my kind of like analysis on that really.

Jawad:

40:48

For sure. 100%. I agree with what you said this actually like start the cause I always kind of felt it, but I never said anything. It was kind of like, I guess this is how it works there. And then a few days ago, I'm pulling up this article. Basically, they. What he says, this is funny. It was like, so he talks about Twitter's bullshit industrial complex, complex. The bullshit industrial complex is a pyramid of, of a group that goes something like this. Group one. People actually shipping ideas, launching businesses, doing creative work, taking risks and sharing firsthand learning. Group two. People writing about group one. in clear, concise, accessible language. Group three people aggregating the learnings of group two, passing it off as firsthand wisdom. Group four. Group for pupil aggregating the learnings of group three, believing they're worthy of praise as the people of group one group five, plus it's just the spiral of going downwards.

Max:

41:57

Yeah, that's very true. So good. I see, I mean, I need to read that.

Jawad:

42:01

Yeah. As soon as they read that. I was like, Matt, you literally explained it perfectly.

Max:

42:08

Yeah.

Jawad:

42:09

I'm going to send you the article. It's my this guy called Sean. bleanda and he writes amazing articles. I must say it. Awesome. Yeah. And lastly, Before we end. Aye. Like to always leave the audience with something. Actionable to do. So what can they do? What's the first step they can take towards maybe no code or. Doing something initially. We can start building with.

Max:

42:41

Hmm. Of course. Yeah. I mean. One of the, the, the, the pieces of advice I got coming into the space. So I entered this space. Yeah, as I said, in February, 2020, and the first call I had with anyone in no code and he was kind enough to give me the time was with KP. He obviously is sort of let's see. Big name in the space and has done some awesome work. And the one piece of advice that kind of stuck with me after that phone call was super simple and kind of probably shaped some wa the philosophy of. A hundred days of no code, which is showing up every day. And I know that sounds really vague. Like super. Like unactionable but I think, I think that the message or the underlying message there is consistency. And. Showing up late. Missing your comfort zone every day. So doing something that's that's, that's working towards like a bigger goal that you have every day and you're chipping away at that. To, to read those like compounding effects. And that is like, again, it's so simple, but so powerful. So whatever your wanting to do, whether that is ship some cool ID you've got in your head of your notebook the, the first step you can take to making that reality is You know, Creating a system for yourself to show up every day. So that you're not just relying on willpower, but you're also relying on a system. And that system hopefully will carry you through to creating that idea. That you want to build so that that's, that's kind of my parting advice. Yeah, so for people to take it.

Jawad:

44:32

Amazing. Thank you. Where can people find you? And the where's the community at.

Max:

44:39

So say on Twitter you'll find me at haning max. Ha. I N I N G max. So feel free to drop me a message there. My dms are open and so always happy to chat. And then the community you can find. At www dot it's a hundred days of no code.com. So pretty simple. if you have any questions or whatever, just, just reach out.

Jawad:

45:05

Awesome. Thank you very much for taking of the time max.

Max:

45:08

No. Of course. Yeah. It's been a, it's been a blast. Thank you.